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	<title>Comments on: Thin Liberalism and the Folly of Burning Bridges</title>
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	<link>http://timothyblee.com/2009/10/23/thin-liberalism-and-the-folly-of-burning-bridges/</link>
	<description>A Blog by Timothy B. Lee</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2010 04:54:54 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: David Piepgrass</title>
		<link>http://timothyblee.com/2009/10/23/thin-liberalism-and-the-folly-of-burning-bridges/comment-page-2/#comment-8172</link>
		<dc:creator>David Piepgrass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:12:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timothyblee.com/?p=1372#comment-8172</guid>
		<description>I would agree that net neutrality legislation is unnecessary if we had a free market for telecommunications. In that case people could choose whether to buy from a service provider that offered net neutrality. But when you&#039;ve got so many places with telco/cable duopolies for broadband (sometimes even monopolies), net neutrality is needed to discourage them from abusing their powerful position. Now I&#039;d prefer that something be done to create a freer market (opening more of the wireless spectrum to all comers might be a good start), but it&#039;s clear that&#039;s not going to happen.

&quot;Free Culturists&quot; demand the elimination of IP rights? News to me. I read (and loved) the book &quot;Free Culture&quot; and that wasn&#039;t anywhere near Lessig&#039;s intent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would agree that net neutrality legislation is unnecessary if we had a free market for telecommunications. In that case people could choose whether to buy from a service provider that offered net neutrality. But when you&#8217;ve got so many places with telco/cable duopolies for broadband (sometimes even monopolies), net neutrality is needed to discourage them from abusing their powerful position. Now I&#8217;d prefer that something be done to create a freer market (opening more of the wireless spectrum to all comers might be a good start), but it&#8217;s clear that&#8217;s not going to happen.</p>
<p>&#8220;Free Culturists&#8221; demand the elimination of IP rights? News to me. I read (and loved) the book &#8220;Free Culture&#8221; and that wasn&#8217;t anywhere near Lessig&#8217;s intent.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Giovanetti</title>
		<link>http://timothyblee.com/2009/10/23/thin-liberalism-and-the-folly-of-burning-bridges/comment-page-2/#comment-7820</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Giovanetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timothyblee.com/?p=1372#comment-7820</guid>
		<description>Net neutrality proponents demand government force and coercion against the owners of network property. Free Culturists demand the elimination of property rights to creative works. How is this libertarian, regardless of whether or not you capitalize it?

It isn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Net neutrality proponents demand government force and coercion against the owners of network property. Free Culturists demand the elimination of property rights to creative works. How is this libertarian, regardless of whether or not you capitalize it?</p>
<p>It isn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: hacksoncode</title>
		<link>http://timothyblee.com/2009/10/23/thin-liberalism-and-the-folly-of-burning-bridges/comment-page-2/#comment-7819</link>
		<dc:creator>hacksoncode</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timothyblee.com/?p=1372#comment-7819</guid>
		<description>The one comment I&#039;ll make is that, while it&#039;s true that network companies should be allowed to do whatever they want with respect to the traffic on their networks (per libertarian ideals), it&#039;s *also* true that with freedom comes responsibility.

Network providers can&#039;t treat different traffic differently based on content, and still claim that they bear no responsibility for that content.

If they want a free ride on the liability for the data on their networks (effectively common carrier status), they need to not selectively pick certain content for special treatment. 

Personally, I think that it would be a good trade for them to make: network neutrality in return for no liability for the data crossing their networks.

But it should be their free choice to make.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The one comment I&#8217;ll make is that, while it&#8217;s true that network companies should be allowed to do whatever they want with respect to the traffic on their networks (per libertarian ideals), it&#8217;s *also* true that with freedom comes responsibility.</p>
<p>Network providers can&#8217;t treat different traffic differently based on content, and still claim that they bear no responsibility for that content.</p>
<p>If they want a free ride on the liability for the data on their networks (effectively common carrier status), they need to not selectively pick certain content for special treatment. </p>
<p>Personally, I think that it would be a good trade for them to make: network neutrality in return for no liability for the data crossing their networks.</p>
<p>But it should be their free choice to make.</p>
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		<title>By: EL Jefe</title>
		<link>http://timothyblee.com/2009/10/23/thin-liberalism-and-the-folly-of-burning-bridges/comment-page-1/#comment-7491</link>
		<dc:creator>EL Jefe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 01:40:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timothyblee.com/?p=1372#comment-7491</guid>
		<description>Lopez, Patrick didn&#039;t say to abandon all order. Liberty is not freedom from those social constructs (traffic signals) that are designed to allow participants (tax payers) use resources (roads) that they pay for in a safe manner. Government regulations and requirements that make it difficult if not impossible for true competitors to emerge For example, try reading some of the Federal Acquisition Regulations and the compliance that surrounds Cost Accounting Standards and other arcane chicanery that large businesses like Boeing, Northrop and others use to shut out competitors. When the State mandates by force of law with penalties including the loss of property and incarceration, certain prescribed actions that prohibit the free offer of goods and services, it is acting in the role of tyranny, arbitrarily setting up hurdles that protect incumbents and create monopolies. Try submitting a government proposal in anything other than MS Office format or PDF.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lopez, Patrick didn&#8217;t say to abandon all order. Liberty is not freedom from those social constructs (traffic signals) that are designed to allow participants (tax payers) use resources (roads) that they pay for in a safe manner. Government regulations and requirements that make it difficult if not impossible for true competitors to emerge For example, try reading some of the Federal Acquisition Regulations and the compliance that surrounds Cost Accounting Standards and other arcane chicanery that large businesses like Boeing, Northrop and others use to shut out competitors. When the State mandates by force of law with penalties including the loss of property and incarceration, certain prescribed actions that prohibit the free offer of goods and services, it is acting in the role of tyranny, arbitrarily setting up hurdles that protect incumbents and create monopolies. Try submitting a government proposal in anything other than MS Office format or PDF.</p>
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		<title>By: Howard Lopez</title>
		<link>http://timothyblee.com/2009/10/23/thin-liberalism-and-the-folly-of-burning-bridges/comment-page-1/#comment-7480</link>
		<dc:creator>Howard Lopez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 00:22:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timothyblee.com/?p=1372#comment-7480</guid>
		<description>Patrick sez: &quot;I’ll even take it a step further… the best approach to solve our economic woes is to repeal *all* regulation in *all* industries.&quot;

So people would then be free to drive on whatever side of the road they wanted?  Come on now.  For that, move to Somalia.   We in the &#039;civilized&#039; world understand that some rule sets have to be in place in order for society to function.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrick sez: &#8220;I’ll even take it a step further… the best approach to solve our economic woes is to repeal *all* regulation in *all* industries.&#8221;</p>
<p>So people would then be free to drive on whatever side of the road they wanted?  Come on now.  For that, move to Somalia.   We in the &#8216;civilized&#8217; world understand that some rule sets have to be in place in order for society to function.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://timothyblee.com/2009/10/23/thin-liberalism-and-the-folly-of-burning-bridges/comment-page-1/#comment-7431</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 20:04:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timothyblee.com/?p=1372#comment-7431</guid>
		<description>&quot;As far as I’m concerned, I retain an interest in those rights taken from me...&quot;

Before I respond to this in detail, could you please clarify what rights exactly you&#039;re referring to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;As far as I’m concerned, I retain an interest in those rights taken from me&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Before I respond to this in detail, could you please clarify what rights exactly you&#8217;re referring to.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://timothyblee.com/2009/10/23/thin-liberalism-and-the-folly-of-burning-bridges/comment-page-1/#comment-7430</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 20:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timothyblee.com/?p=1372#comment-7430</guid>
		<description>&quot;The best constructive approach is for everybody to repeal *all* telecom regulation.&quot;

You&#039;re absolutely right... that is the answer. I&#039;ll even take it a step further... the best approach to solve our economic woes is to repeal *all* regulation in *all* industries.

&quot;The government has monopolized all of our rights to freely broadcast and communicate, and placed them into the hands of telecom and cable carriers.&quot;

Right again. This is the government&#039;s M.O. Control, regulate, control, regulate... then when bad things happen, blame the &quot;free&quot; market so they have an excuse for more control, more regulation.

&quot;If the fullest extent, lamentably, happens to be by imposing net neutrality regulation, then I have every right to do that, just as surely you would recognize that I have a right to recover loss from a thief or assailant.&quot;

But why argue for more regulation? If it was regulation that got us into this mess... why argue for more of it? The cycle has to be broken. More power *cannot* be given to the government.

Why not instead go after the source of the problem... the source being that criminal organization we call government?

For regulation *is* unjust force. I agree, down with the companies who are able to gain an unfair advantage by utilizing the government&#039;s control (see also: health insurance companies). Up with the competing companies who are being shut out by the government&#039;s regulations, subsidies, and so on that give the bigger companies unfair advantages.

But don&#039;t you think we should focus on getting rid of the government, which steals and controls and murders and oppresses? That created the beast, the regulations, in the first place?

&quot;Property == Good, Patents == Property, Patents == Good.&quot;

Actually, patents are not legitimate property, but rather a state-assisted method of force to inhibit competition. So Patents == Bad. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The best constructive approach is for everybody to repeal *all* telecom regulation.&#8221;</p>
<p>You&#8217;re absolutely right&#8230; that is the answer. I&#8217;ll even take it a step further&#8230; the best approach to solve our economic woes is to repeal *all* regulation in *all* industries.</p>
<p>&#8220;The government has monopolized all of our rights to freely broadcast and communicate, and placed them into the hands of telecom and cable carriers.&#8221;</p>
<p>Right again. This is the government&#8217;s M.O. Control, regulate, control, regulate&#8230; then when bad things happen, blame the &#8220;free&#8221; market so they have an excuse for more control, more regulation.</p>
<p>&#8220;If the fullest extent, lamentably, happens to be by imposing net neutrality regulation, then I have every right to do that, just as surely you would recognize that I have a right to recover loss from a thief or assailant.&#8221;</p>
<p>But why argue for more regulation? If it was regulation that got us into this mess&#8230; why argue for more of it? The cycle has to be broken. More power *cannot* be given to the government.</p>
<p>Why not instead go after the source of the problem&#8230; the source being that criminal organization we call government?</p>
<p>For regulation *is* unjust force. I agree, down with the companies who are able to gain an unfair advantage by utilizing the government&#8217;s control (see also: health insurance companies). Up with the competing companies who are being shut out by the government&#8217;s regulations, subsidies, and so on that give the bigger companies unfair advantages.</p>
<p>But don&#8217;t you think we should focus on getting rid of the government, which steals and controls and murders and oppresses? That created the beast, the regulations, in the first place?</p>
<p>&#8220;Property == Good, Patents == Property, Patents == Good.&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually, patents are not legitimate property, but rather a state-assisted method of force to inhibit competition. So Patents == Bad. <img src='http://timothyblee.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Bill Ahern</title>
		<link>http://timothyblee.com/2009/10/23/thin-liberalism-and-the-folly-of-burning-bridges/comment-page-1/#comment-7426</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Ahern</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 18:49:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timothyblee.com/?p=1372#comment-7426</guid>
		<description>Patrick (and others),

But a libertarian cannot honestly oppose net neutrality and yet not propose and fight for alternatives such as open spectrum. The government has monopolized all of our rights to freely broadcast and communicate, and placed them into the hands of telecom and cable carriers. They use arguments such as &quot;natural monopolies&quot; to justify this, without any basis in modern science.

As far as I&#039;m concerned, I retain an interest in those rights taken from me, and it&#039;s legitimate for me (and society) to exercise that interest to the fullest extent practicable. If the fullest extent, lamentably, happens to be by imposing net neutrality regulation, then I have every right to do that, just as surely you would recognize that I have a right to recover loss from a thief or assailant.

This idea of unjust force is uninformed and ignorant. The best constructive approach is for everybody to repeal *all* telecom regulation. Yes, it&#039;s a daunting task to unwind the current administrative systems.

Short of that, I&#039;m going to fight to retain some semblance of interest in my right. How dare you suggest that I should sacrifice my freedom so that the companies benefiting from the very expropriation can proceed to tax me! Preposterous! These companies stand to lose nothing more than what they&#039;ve taken, and in actuality they&#039;re losing significantly less. I&#039;m getting a pittance in return.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrick (and others),</p>
<p>But a libertarian cannot honestly oppose net neutrality and yet not propose and fight for alternatives such as open spectrum. The government has monopolized all of our rights to freely broadcast and communicate, and placed them into the hands of telecom and cable carriers. They use arguments such as &#8220;natural monopolies&#8221; to justify this, without any basis in modern science.</p>
<p>As far as I&#8217;m concerned, I retain an interest in those rights taken from me, and it&#8217;s legitimate for me (and society) to exercise that interest to the fullest extent practicable. If the fullest extent, lamentably, happens to be by imposing net neutrality regulation, then I have every right to do that, just as surely you would recognize that I have a right to recover loss from a thief or assailant.</p>
<p>This idea of unjust force is uninformed and ignorant. The best constructive approach is for everybody to repeal *all* telecom regulation. Yes, it&#8217;s a daunting task to unwind the current administrative systems.</p>
<p>Short of that, I&#8217;m going to fight to retain some semblance of interest in my right. How dare you suggest that I should sacrifice my freedom so that the companies benefiting from the very expropriation can proceed to tax me! Preposterous! These companies stand to lose nothing more than what they&#8217;ve taken, and in actuality they&#8217;re losing significantly less. I&#8217;m getting a pittance in return.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://timothyblee.com/2009/10/23/thin-liberalism-and-the-folly-of-burning-bridges/comment-page-1/#comment-7409</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 16:38:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timothyblee.com/?p=1372#comment-7409</guid>
		<description>Continuing on with my last comment, I&#039;d like to clarify a few points...

Libertarians are against illegitimate control.

Forcing someone to do something that they don&#039;t want to do -- this is exactly what government does, this is how it operates... key word is &quot;govern&quot; -- is illegitimate control, and is in fact a crime (or, at least, would be if the government wasn&#039;t the one doing it).

And so where libertarians *are* against the idea of net neutrality is where the government unjustly steps in and uses *force* to tell the ISP how it can run it&#039;s OWN business -- even if the ISP is committing no true crime.

Unless the ISP is committing some crime against its customers -- such as violating their contract, stealing private information, etc etc -- then the ISP must be left alone, for a true free market operates on an extremely basic but also extremely important principle: the voluntary transaction. The voluntary transaction is king. Voluntary is the only just way. Millions of people *voluntarily* handing over their money to businesses in exchange for a service or product (note the difference between that and taxation, which is money stolen from the people by force).

That&#039;s how it has to be. To say to an ISP, &quot;we don&#039;t like the service you provide, or the prices you charge, so you know what we&#039;re gonna do? We&#039;re gonna fine you, jail you, run you out of business, take over your business...&quot; is completely wrong and completely *unjust*. You as the customer have the choice: pay them, or not pay them. Subscribe to their services, or take your business elsewhere. They are not breaking into your house government-style in the middle of the night dressed in ninja outfits armed with high-powered guns forcing you to subscribe to their services, are they?

Just because you don&#039;t like what a company provides doesn&#039;t give you OR the government the right to exercise control or any amount of force against said company if the company is committing no true crime against you. Otherwise you are committing a crime yourself.

*THAT* is where the libertarian is against net neutrality. Force is wrong, a crime is a crime, no matter who does it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Continuing on with my last comment, I&#8217;d like to clarify a few points&#8230;</p>
<p>Libertarians are against illegitimate control.</p>
<p>Forcing someone to do something that they don&#8217;t want to do &#8212; this is exactly what government does, this is how it operates&#8230; key word is &#8220;govern&#8221; &#8212; is illegitimate control, and is in fact a crime (or, at least, would be if the government wasn&#8217;t the one doing it).</p>
<p>And so where libertarians *are* against the idea of net neutrality is where the government unjustly steps in and uses *force* to tell the ISP how it can run it&#8217;s OWN business &#8212; even if the ISP is committing no true crime.</p>
<p>Unless the ISP is committing some crime against its customers &#8212; such as violating their contract, stealing private information, etc etc &#8212; then the ISP must be left alone, for a true free market operates on an extremely basic but also extremely important principle: the voluntary transaction. The voluntary transaction is king. Voluntary is the only just way. Millions of people *voluntarily* handing over their money to businesses in exchange for a service or product (note the difference between that and taxation, which is money stolen from the people by force).</p>
<p>That&#8217;s how it has to be. To say to an ISP, &#8220;we don&#8217;t like the service you provide, or the prices you charge, so you know what we&#8217;re gonna do? We&#8217;re gonna fine you, jail you, run you out of business, take over your business&#8230;&#8221; is completely wrong and completely *unjust*. You as the customer have the choice: pay them, or not pay them. Subscribe to their services, or take your business elsewhere. They are not breaking into your house government-style in the middle of the night dressed in ninja outfits armed with high-powered guns forcing you to subscribe to their services, are they?</p>
<p>Just because you don&#8217;t like what a company provides doesn&#8217;t give you OR the government the right to exercise control or any amount of force against said company if the company is committing no true crime against you. Otherwise you are committing a crime yourself.</p>
<p>*THAT* is where the libertarian is against net neutrality. Force is wrong, a crime is a crime, no matter who does it.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://timothyblee.com/2009/10/23/thin-liberalism-and-the-folly-of-burning-bridges/comment-page-1/#comment-7401</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 15:58:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timothyblee.com/?p=1372#comment-7401</guid>
		<description>As many others have commented here, many people claim to be &quot;libertarians&quot; when in fact they&#039;re nothing more than slightly more conservative neo-conservatives. Which means they don&#039;t stand for liberty, they don&#039;t stand for freedom... they just like to pretend they do. They are frauds.

A true libertarian (note the small &#039;l&#039;, not the capital &#039;L&#039;, which would denote the non-libertarian political party) loves both the idea of net neutrality as well as the idea of open source software, and strongly supports both ideas.

There is absolutely no reason a true libertarian (read: one who is against the state as well as all other forms of illegitimate control) would be against net neutrality or free, open source software... unless, of course, one wished to force the idea of OSS on someone else. :D

As an anarcho-capitalist, I *strongly* support open source software, and have contributed to a few FOSS projects myself.

For a great example of what true libertarians stand for, check out LewRockwell.com. Lew, a well-known &quot;anti-state, anti-war, pro-market&quot; libertarian, is a champion for *true* liberty, and the folks that write articles for his website as well as his blog are *true* libertarians, who, by the way, have had nothing but good things to say about the open source movement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As many others have commented here, many people claim to be &#8220;libertarians&#8221; when in fact they&#8217;re nothing more than slightly more conservative neo-conservatives. Which means they don&#8217;t stand for liberty, they don&#8217;t stand for freedom&#8230; they just like to pretend they do. They are frauds.</p>
<p>A true libertarian (note the small &#8216;l&#8217;, not the capital &#8216;L&#8217;, which would denote the non-libertarian political party) loves both the idea of net neutrality as well as the idea of open source software, and strongly supports both ideas.</p>
<p>There is absolutely no reason a true libertarian (read: one who is against the state as well as all other forms of illegitimate control) would be against net neutrality or free, open source software&#8230; unless, of course, one wished to force the idea of OSS on someone else. <img src='http://timothyblee.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>As an anarcho-capitalist, I *strongly* support open source software, and have contributed to a few FOSS projects myself.</p>
<p>For a great example of what true libertarians stand for, check out LewRockwell.com. Lew, a well-known &#8220;anti-state, anti-war, pro-market&#8221; libertarian, is a champion for *true* liberty, and the folks that write articles for his website as well as his blog are *true* libertarians, who, by the way, have had nothing but good things to say about the open source movement.</p>
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