More US taxpayer money being spent to prevent Haitians from escaping Haiti:
Every day, a United States Air Force cargo plane specially equipped with radio transmitters flies for five hours over the devastated country, broadcasting news and a recorded message from Raymond Joseph, Haiti’s ambassador in Washington.
“Listen, don’t rush on boats to leave the country,” Mr. Joseph says in Creole, according to a transcript released by the Pentagon. “If you do that, we’ll all have even worse problems. Because, I’ll be honest with you: If you think you will reach the U.S. and all the doors will be wide open to you, that’s not at all the case. And they will intercept you right on the water and send you back home where you came from.”
Homeland Security and Defense Department officials say they are taking a hard line to avert a mass exodus from the island that could lead to deaths at sea or a refugee crisis in South Florida. Haiti’s capital, Port-au-Prince, is about 700 miles from Miami…
The State Department has also been denying many seriously injured people in Port-au-Prince visas to be transferred to Miami for surgery and treatment, said Dr. William O’Neill, the dean of the Miller School of Medicine at the University of Miami, which has erected a field hospital near the airport there.
“It’s beyond insane,” Dr. O’Neill said Saturday, having just returned to Miami from Haiti. “It’s bureaucracy at its worse.”
Notice that the problem with “a refugee crisis in South Florida” isn’t the “refugee crisis” part—Haiti is already a nationwide refugee crisis. The problem is the “in South Florida” part. We Americans like our charity to be clean and abstract. Texting $10 to the Red Cross is convenient and lets us feel good about ourselves. Best of all, it’s a form of charity that keeps the Haitian people themselves far away, so that we can go back to ignoring them and letting them starve when we get bored with the Good Samaritan act.
Dear Haiti, we are very upset to hear that you are suffering. So long as you do it on CNN.com and not in our country, we’re willing to help for a few days, or at least until the new TV seasons start up again.
There’s no question that letting as many Haitians as want into America would help them immensely. But this ignores all the unintended consequences of such an act. What would happen to America? It would change, and not much for the better. What would happen to our crime rate? Would you want your wife walking alone in a Haitian neighborhood? If you don’t want that where you live, why should other, poorer Americans be subjected to it? When you lived in DC, did you live in a Salvadoran neighborhood to save on rent? It’s just not worth it. You can’t pretend that they’ll improve the nation in other ways either. A few Haitian restaurants will open up, but overall they’ll just add to America’s growing underclass. We have Haitians right now in America and we can also see how they live in their native country. It’s no mystery what will happen if they come. Hint: they won’t build the next google.
Your America bashing is disgusting as well. Why shouldn’t we feel good about ourselves when we help others? They were lucky to get it in the first place (not all of the Haitians feel this way, some erected roadblocks to protest the slow aid). Have you even considered why we have the incredible wealth we do and they don’t? We created it! That’s something else we can feel good about. You sound like some sarcastic communist in this post, mocking those who’ve succeeded.
Speaking of communists, MLK was a commie. He also cheated on his doctoral thesis and on his wife. With prostitutes. More than one at a time.
What would happen to our crime rate? Would you want your wife walking alone in a Haitian neighborhood? If you don’t want that where you live, why should other, poorer Americans be subjected to it?
I love the evidence-free assertions here. In reality, the evidence shows that immigrants commit fewer crimes than native-born Americans. And as it happens, I live close to both Vietnamese and Hispanic neighborhoods. I’ve seen no evidence that these groups disproportionately participate in criminal behaviors. To the contrary, I consider them a major asset to my neighborhood. And of course, immigrants are responsible for much of our “incredible wealth.” Google co-founder Sergey Brin is a Russian immigrant. Intel CEO Andy Grove is a Hungarian immigrant.
In any event, I think your comment nicely illustrates my point: you don’t care very much about the rights or the welfare of foreigners. Even assuming you’re right that immigrants are a net cost for American citizens, those costs are awfully small compared to the massive economic and social benefits immigrants get from moving here. I think it’s appallingly callous to deny millions of people basic freedoms and force them to spend their lives in abject poverty because a small minority of them might commit crimes here.
Remember that one of the arguments for segregation was that black people commit more crimes than white people, and so white safety requires keeping blacks away from them. In the 1960s, we rejected this kind of collective guilt—the fact that some black people commit crimes doesn’t justify discriminating against the rest. I think collective guilt is just as wrong when it’s applied to nationalities. The fact that a minority of Haitians might become criminals doesn’t justify discriminating against all Haitians.
Joe, I like how it’s “America bashing” to think America is so nice that other people should be able to come and enjoy it.
If I copied what you wrote as a parody of the anti-immigration position I’d be rightfully criticized for setting up a lame straw man argument.
Also, I came across this on CNN:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/01/19/florida.haiti.orphans/index.html
Everyone is willing to applaud specific acts of Haitian immigration, because it’s obvious that it’s a massive improvement to the status of these two kids. But if we make it a general statement, then we get stuff like Joe above.
Hi Joe,
I’m a middle-class white girl and I live in a Salvadoran neighborhood in DC. ;P
So why are we using sugar quotas to keep the farmers of Haiti from selling to the US market? How much of the pressure to migrate to the USA is a result of trade policy that keeps farmers from becoming prosperous at home?
There’s numerous problems with the immigrant study you posted. 1. It covers all immigrants from every country. They vary enormously in their behavior. It’s insane to lump together central american peasants who jumped the fence and indian brahmins on a work visa. 2. It uses incarceration data. Many immigrants who commit crimes end up deported. 3. It’s only about immigrants, not their children. This is far more important for the long term effect on america. Consider this: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4yctHhP4f-8/SzIEhLbAmnI/AAAAAAAAAUo/CZuFe_Buz3s/s1600-h/Richwine.gif
“I’ve seen no evidence that these groups disproportionately participate in criminal behaviors. To the contrary, I consider them a major asset to my neighborhood. And of course, immigrants are responsible for much of our “incredible wealth.” Google co-founder Sergey Brin is a Russian immigrant. Intel CEO Andy Grove is a Hungarian immigrant.”
I wouldn’t expect that of the vietnamese, but for the hispanics. I believe you haven’t seen it with your own eyes, but have you read up on the statistics? Whites and asians have low crime rates, blacks and hispanics high ones.
And who specifically does our wealth come from? The answer is the same. Whites and asians. No one’s surprised that a russian and a hungarian are creating/leading these companies. Chinese and koreans also make us richer. But patterns emerge very quickly once we look. How many high tech companies did guatemalans and haitians start? Are they making us richer or just lining up for low income, low skill jobs or turning to crime?
“In any event, I think your comment nicely illustrates my point: you don’t care very much about the rights or the welfare of foreigners. Even assuming you’re right that immigrants are a net cost for American citizens, those costs are awfully small compared to the massive economic and social benefits immigrants get from moving here. I think it’s appallingly callous to deny millions of people basic freedoms and force them to spend their lives in abject poverty because a small minority of them might commit crimes here.”
I agree that banishing someone to Haiti will likely force them into poverty. But why? You can’t say it’s corruption or lack of education. When they come here, they remain poor, depending on jobs from non-haitians. You’re not looking at the long term impact of immigration, which if far more important. What happens if we act compassionate and let in anybody who wants to come? They’ll flood in. They’ll reproduce too, at higher rates than the native born. They don’t have what it takes to maintain our high standard of living. Their own countries will remain shitholes and ours will slowly but surely get worse and worse. The underclass will grow and grow, competing for the same number of jobs, crime will rise as a result. Is there any doubt that we’d turn into columbia, venezuela, or brazil if our demographics match theirs? We could have favelas in our time, and kidnappings for ransom. The end result isn’t any lessening of suffering, but spreading it around and even increasing it. So lets look at this situation honestly, certain people, who have what it takes to build an advanced society with high standards of living, are in demand. If you truly want to improve the lives of the poor, the best way isn’t to encourage that they reproduce, it’s to encourage the gifted to do so, to spread out across the world, settle down, and produce.
“Remember that one of the arguments for segregation was that black people commit more crimes than white people, and so white safety requires keeping blacks away from them.”
Yes, blacks to commit a lot of crime. Hispanics do too. Curiously, Africa and latin america have very high crime rates. That’s why we have suburbs in america now, whites and asians want to live in a safe place and send their kids to good schools. Nothing wrong with that.
Libby: smart move. Do you walk around at night alone?
“So why are we using sugar quotas to keep the farmers of Haiti from selling to the US market?”
American corn farmer lobbies. You can also blame our greedy beef farmers for keeping foreign beef from coming in.
Oh, well it’s a relief that you’re only for race-based anti-immigration measures. :/
Joe:
“2. It uses incarceration data. Many immigrants who commit crimes end up deported.”
So isn’t that a point in our favor? If immigrants who commit crimes often end up deported, and the benefits of being here are so high, doesn’t that imply that a) immigrants will be much less likely to do so, so to avoid deportation and b) those that do won’t be in the country any more — unlike current Americans, who after committing their crimes, are allowed to stay — and given the large % of crimes that are committed by previous criminals? This sounds like, from a criminal perspective, immigrants are a much better deal for us than current Americans. Would you accept a compromise that allowed large numbers of immigrants, but that required deportation if they commit a felony? Surely this would address your one and only objection.
“I wouldn’t expect that of the vietnamese, but for the hispanics.”
Can you hear yourself? “This kind of people are lazy and shiftless, that kind of people are responsible and hardworking.” Why can’t we deal with people as individuals? If an immigrant comes to this country, how about we treat them as individuals? Why are Haitians or Guatemalans an undifferentiated mass of people that we can bar based on the arbitrary lines on the map that they were born within?
Obviously, as any demographic crime data implies from the fact that they identified the perpetrator, we can actually determine the guilt or innocence of specific individuals. Also — any crime data that includes non violent activities like drug usage are not going to be a very compelling case here.
And finally, at the end of the day — do the massive benefits that immigrants (especially from those poverty and disaster stricken nations) get when they come here really not outweigh the chance that a percentage of them will commit a crime? The idea that we should turn away someone because someone else who looks like them might commit a crime is pretty repulsive, when accepting them can create such a massive improvement in their life?
“Oh, well it’s a relief that you’re only for race-based anti-immigration measures. :/”
It’s a good first approximation. Giving iq tests and checking criminal records would be even better. But no one here proposed that, they said we should let in absolutely anyone who wants to come in.
“Would you accept a compromise that allowed large numbers of immigrants, but that required deportation if they commit a felony? Surely this would address your one and only objection.”
Actually, my other objection is that they will fill up the underclass of america as very few have what it takes to start the businesses that employ those of the underclass. Also, this is a bad compromise because, as I pointed out, it’s their children that are the real problem. I posted a better idea above.
“Can you hear yourself? “This kind of people are lazy and shiftless, that kind of people are responsible and hardworking.” Why can’t we deal with people as individuals? If an immigrant comes to this country, how about we treat them as individuals? Why are Haitians or Guatemalans an undifferentiated mass of people that we can bar based on the arbitrary lines on the map that they were born within?”
But how do we know the kinds of individuals they will produce as children? Grandchildren? We can’t, but we can accurately predict an average. Or we can use my idea above of iq tests and criminal records and then treat them as individuals. But it’s just insane to let in everyone who wants to come.
“And finally, at the end of the day — do the massive benefits that immigrants (especially from those poverty and disaster stricken nations) get when they come here really not outweigh the chance that a percentage of them will commit a crime? The idea that we should turn away someone because someone else who looks like them might commit a crime is pretty repulsive, when accepting them can create such a massive improvement in their life?”
This is a good point, but you’re only looking at the short term. What are the long term consequences of this? For america, the world? Mexico and haiti will remain impoverished and America’s underclass will grow, impoverishing us and leading to large increases in crime.
Do you really want to improve Haitians’ lives? Promote birth control there.
I can see you don’t like discussing the reality of human nature, but I’ll just end by saying that….you should. If you ignore this thing that we’ve been taught all our lives to ignore, you can’t possibly improve the well being of humanity as the reality of human differences has a major impact on anything important.